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Meteoro
05-20-2005, 07:36 AM
Hey, everyone! *I'm taking the liberty of creating this thread to start discussing what would be the twitches we'd have to make for our characters to stay away from the original CrossGen concepts and still work on their own.

All ideas would be welcome, so, let the brain storm begin.

Oh, let's point out some of the facts that should be changed:

The House Sinister vs House Dexter Deal.

The lineages consisting of Firsts, Secundae and Sigil Bearers. *Also the role of the Atlanteans.

The whole sigil concept.

(Just to point out a few things.)

I think there wouldn't be a problem at all if we keep our characters being ancient Gods. *We should tie this into something entirely different, though.

:cool1: M :cool1:

OZZ
05-20-2005, 07:42 AM
A web comic strip based on all your guys' stuff...

now THAT I would read.

Meteoro
05-20-2005, 07:45 AM
Hey, Ozzy! *Check the OOC thread going on about this subject in the OOC Forum of the RP section of these boards if you want to know more about what we're talking about ;).

:cool1: M :cool1:

Jason Sanborn
05-20-2005, 09:56 AM
First = Gods
Secundae = Demigods

Transitioned Atlanteans = This is a tough one. What if we were to simply say "Ancient Gods" or something along those lines. Something that sets them apart, and more powerful.

House Sinister/Dexter = Another difficult one, because this you can't easily just switch the name and say "Look it's new" because the concept is still similar. We'd have to find an alternate way of explaining it as well.

Little M
05-20-2005, 01:14 PM
Hmmmm... *I think it would be nicer to create a whole new race of Gods. *For example, a race created by some of the Greek Gods or something along those lines (it doesn't have to be the Greek guys, I'm just giving an example). *Mostly because the Ancient Gods have been established as enemies of our kind and they play an important part of our background. *For example, Mil being the son of Hera and Anubis ;).

Maybe the could have been a first attempt of Gea at creating a Godly race (before creating the Olympians), then they got dismissed... *Thoughts?

:cool1: M :cool1:

Qwaring's clone#1
05-20-2005, 05:37 PM
The House Sinister vs House Dexter Deal.
Like Jason mentioned we can't just change the names, so why not change houses into families. Instead of fueding houses the gods are divided into families or clans.


The lineages consisting of Firsts, Secundae and Sigil Bearers. Also the role of the Atlanteans.
Atlanteans could be a race of god like beings that fled from another universe which was dying (this dying universe would also take the place of the Negation universe if needed, the character that takes Charon's place would be an incredibly powerful being that arrived in the universe and used his power to keep it alive, but it's near death experience left the cosmos twisted and mangled, similar to the Negation universe). Some members of this race created the gods and godlings out of loneliness, they want more of their kind and the gods are the first step to created more of their kind (like creating neanderthals in order to eventually come up with humans).


The whole sigil concept.
Instead of symbols we could use medallions that are bonded directly to the character's body. Just make them look different than sigils. Still too close? Uhm, what if the "transitioned" that created these medallions is still loyal to the dying universe his kind fled from. He says he's creating these medallions in order to create soldiers to defend against the invasion, but he's really going to use them to turn on the gods and "transitions" during the invasion and fight for the invaders. Hmmm, that might be too far out there, but I doubt we'd be able to get to write the War SL into a comic, so why not take a slight departure from it and go wild.

Qwaring's clone#1
05-20-2005, 05:42 PM
Instead of "Charon" creating "Lawbringers" the "Lawbringers" are a race of powerful beings, but not as powerful as the "transitioned" that left, that had combined thier energies to create "Charon". They created him so he could save their dying universe. He saved them and then took over. The effort of creating "Charon" and saving the universe drove the "Lawbringer's" insane, leaving them like they are.

Qwaring's clone#1
05-20-2005, 05:44 PM
In order to give the "transitioned" a link to Earth make the Earth of the dying universe into the world that they evolved from. They're humans after billions of years of evolution.

Qwaring's clone#1
05-20-2005, 05:54 PM
When the gods were first created they were attacked by the old gods, who had sensed the creation of some rival dieties. There was a brief war that ended only when the "transitioned" stepped in and created "Altwaal". "Altwaal" was powerful enough to lead the gods to victory. The weapons of "Altwaal" are items that the old gods gave to him as part of their peace agreement with him ("You have my sword so I'll never attack you again" kind of deal). Shortly after that the old gods went into their sleep. They later woke up to find that "Altwaal" is no longer around and so they attack again (the first RP Old God war).

Meteoro
05-21-2005, 07:27 AM
Wow, Q! *This is some real nice set of ideas. *Some I really like, I have some different alternatives for others *(as a suggestion each, of course).

ON THE HOUSE DEXTER vs HOUSE SINISTER DEAL

Like Jason mentioned we can't just change the names, so why not change houses into families. Instead of fueding houses the gods are divided into families or clans.

I like this :thumleft:. *Still, I think we could spin things a little further to make it our own. *See: *The equivalent of Altwaal, had two favorite “son and daughterâ€

Meteoro
05-21-2005, 07:38 AM
ABOUT THE ATLANTEANS AND THE NEGATION UNIVERSE


Atlanteans could be a race of god like beings that fled from another universe which was dying (this dying universe would also take the place of the Negation universe if needed, the character that takes Charon's place would be an incredibly powerful being that arrived in the universe and used his power to keep it alive, but it's near death experience left the cosmos twisted and mangled, similar to the Negation universe)

This sounds pretty neat. *:thumbup: *These Atlantean Gods may be basically bound to this dying universe because it has the richest source of Universal Energies that they need to keep going. *Yet this charge of UE is so strong that their suns can’t take it any longer and they’re getting extinguished. *Some of these Atlanteans fled from their universe and some died while trying. *Now, they could some real powerful creatures lacking the extremely strong source of Universal Energy to keep going. *Maybe this could justify their creation of our race of Gods, hoping they would evolve and leech from their UE once they’ve “grownâ€

Meteoro
05-21-2005, 07:52 AM
THE SIGILS


Instead of symbols we could use medallions that are bonded directly to the character's body. Just make them look different than sigils. Still too close?

Yup, still too close :p


Uhm, what if the "transitioned" that created these medallions is still loyal to the dying universe his kind fled from. He says he's creating these medallions in order to create soldiers to defend against the invasion, but he's really going to use them to turn on the gods and "transitions" during the invasion and fight for the invaders.

I like this one much much better! *This would give the Sigil Bearers a slightly different purpose, yet make them work fine in the new big picture :thumleft:

Another idea, tying with what I proposed in the previous post, would be that these “Sigil Bearersâ€

Meteoro
05-21-2005, 08:39 AM
ON CHARON AND THE LAWBRINGERS


Instead of "Charon" creating "Lawbringers" the "Lawbringers" are a race of powerful beings, but not as powerful as the "transitioned" that left, that had combined thier energies to create "Charon". They created him so he could save their dying universe. He saved them and then took over. The effort of creating "Charon" and saving the universe drove the "Lawbringer's" insane, leaving them like they are.

I love this idea and I don't have a thing to add.

:thumleft: M :thumright:

Meteoro
05-21-2005, 08:42 AM
THE EARTH


In order to give the "transitioned" a link to Earth make the Earth of the dying universe into the world that they evolved from. They're humans after billions of years of evolution.


Pretty cool! *So, this would mean that the dying universe is basically where the Earth is, right?

:cool1: M :cool1:

Meteoro
05-21-2005, 08:59 AM
ALTWAAL, HIS WEAPONS AND THE OLD GODS


When the gods were first created they were attacked by the old gods, who had sensed the creation of some rival dieties. There was a brief war that ended only when the "transitioned" stepped in and created "Altwaal". "Altwaal" was powerful enough to lead the gods to victory.

The idea is good, but I think it conflicts with past storylines of our RP. *I mean, our Firsts already faced the Old Gods and succeeded as a result of lots of sacrifices on our kind’s part. *Bringing Altwaal this way, would undo that chapter of our storylines…

Still, I like the idea of Altwaal being important but not exactly being at the top of the food chain. *I think there’s room to play with this idea.


The weapons of "Altwaal" are items that the old gods gave to him as part of their peace agreement with him ("You have my sword so I'll never attack you again" kind of deal). Shortly after that the old gods went into their sleep. They later woke up to find that "Altwaal" is no longer around and so they attack again (the first RP Old God war). *

Now, this is maybe one of the most problematic aspects of translate into a unique universe (and not look like a CG rip off) : *Altwaal’s weapons. *I know they’ve played an important part in our characters’ past, yet I can’t figure out how to make them seem unique instead of simply “based on Altwaal’s original weaponsâ€

Qwaring
05-21-2005, 10:12 AM
Wow, Q! Â*This is some real nice set of ideas. Â*Some I really like, I have some different alternatives for others Â*(as a suggestion each, of course).
My ideas are also just suggestions.


ON THE HOUSE DEXTER vs HOUSE SINISTER DEAL

Pyrem is the Dexter guy's name, although we should really start renaming everything.

Your idea sounds great M. Although maybe we should add a few smaller families, those who have split off from the main two to try to become independant. The Ingra and Pyrem families would be the main two, but if we have a few others scattered around it'll make it seem less like Dexter and Sinister. And house Uter, if Bard does not object to it being used, is a group where gods try to forget about the family troubles and just live peacefully, or at least just independantly of them.

Qwaring
05-21-2005, 10:20 AM
ABOUT THE ATLANTEANS AND THE NEGATION UNIVERSE
Also another good alteration. But what if instead of the Atlanteans creating the Gods for food they're looking to create new bodies. What if the Atlantean's forms became unstable in this new universe, because the natural forces of this universe are so different than their home reality's, so they have had to change their shape or create duplicates (Mentors and the aspects of the atlanteans) in order to survive so far but those are just temporary methods. The gods are their attempt to create perminent forms for themselves so they can live in this universe.

Scion the Nun
05-21-2005, 10:21 AM
ON THE HOUSE DEXTER vs HOUSE SINISTER DEAL


maybe we should add a few smaller families, those who have split off from the main two to try to become independant. The Ingra and Pyrem families would be the main two, but if we have a few others scattered around it'll make it seem less like Dexter and Sinister. And house Uter, if Bard does not object to it being used, is a group where gods try to forget about the family troubles and just live peacefully, or at least just independantly of them.

I really like this :thumleft:

:cool1: M :cool1:

Qwaring
05-21-2005, 10:28 AM
[quote="M"]THE SIGILSAnother idea, tying with what I proposed in the previous post, would be that these “Sigil Bearersâ€

Qwaring
05-21-2005, 10:30 AM
THE EARTH

Pretty cool! Â*So, this would mean that the dying universe is basically where the Earth is, right?

:cool1: M :cool1:
I'm thinking that both universe's have an Earth. The Earth of the dying universe is just older.

Qwaring
05-21-2005, 10:33 AM
ALTWAAL, HIS WEAPONS AND THE OLD GODS
I only suggested the old gods because I thought Altwaal needed someone to fight. We can use someone or something else just as easily.

Meteoro
05-21-2005, 10:41 AM
ABOUT THE ATLANTEANS AND THE NEGATION UNIVERSE


what if instead of the Atlanteans creating the Gods for food they're looking to create new bodies. What if the Atlantean's forms became unstable in this new universe, because the natural forces of this universe are so different than their home reality's, so they have had to change their shape or create duplicates (Mentors and the aspects of the atlanteans) in order to survive so far but those are just temporary methods. The gods are their attempt to create perminent forms for themselves so they can live in this universe.

I like this twist a lot as well. *So, would this mean that the already trascended First are ready *to be *used as new bodies? *I love the implications this could have.

On this matter, I think we should need the imput *of those playing Atlantean characters to see if they agree on this, since this would change part of their character motivations.

Btw, I created a new thread to start playing over there with new names for some CG places and characters.

:cool1: M :cool1:

Meteoro
05-21-2005, 10:45 AM
THE SIGILS

[quote="Qwaring"][quote="M"]Another idea [...] would be that these “Sigil Bearersâ€

Meteoro
05-21-2005, 10:47 AM
THE EARTH





Pretty cool! *So, this would mean that the dying universe is basically where the Earth is, right?

:cool1: M :cool1:
I'm thinking that both universe's have an Earth. The Earth of the dying universe is just older.

Hmmmmm... * I love the idea of a dying universe where the Atlanteans come from, but making it a parallel universe would make things a little complicated... *I mean, with characters such as Manity, Lady Mattson and Meteorette, coming from a parallel universe, we could start having a little too many "realities around...

Of course, I can be convinced otherwise ;).

:cool1: M :cool1:

Meteoro
05-21-2005, 10:49 AM
((Hmmmm... for easier following of the plot twists, I think it would be much easier if we explored only one concept per thread... *Which would mean to split this thread into several threads... *Or would it *complicate it even more?))

KyleLitke
05-21-2005, 02:48 PM
Not that I have any say whatsoever, but personally I'd rather see something more original as a webcomic. It'd be neat, but to get away from the Crossgen stuff, you'd have to change practicaly the entire thing. Having two warring houses with different names, and calling them Gods instead of First just isn't really changing it much at all. It's one thing for RP, which is fun, but I think for a web comic it'd be too derivative of Crossgen unless a lot of major things get changed...and if a lot of major things DO get changed, then you might as well just create your own brand new thing. *:dunno:

But my opinions worth nothing, so it doesn't really matter.

Jason Sanborn
05-21-2005, 05:32 PM
I think you have a valid point. That is partly why I suggest at least starting with some of the side stories that really have nothing to do with the First. For example, Kobalty is a hero's quest with four would-be heroes on a quest to unlock a well of power. It has a mix of sci-fi and fantasy. There were a couple references to the First that appeared, but when changed, really will have no real connection at all.

As to original works, I'm completely open to that idea as well. I believe Meteoro and Prometeo are working (or going to work) on something that is completely new and has no connection to the First or CG at all.

Qwaring
05-21-2005, 10:13 PM
Not that I have any say whatsoever, but personally I'd rather see something more original as a webcomic. It'd be neat, but to get away from the Crossgen stuff, you'd have to change practicaly the entire thing. Having two warring houses with different names, and calling them Gods instead of First just isn't really changing it much at all. It's one thing for RP, which is fun, but I think for a web comic it'd be too derivative of Crossgen unless a lot of major things get changed...and if a lot of major things DO get changed, then you might as well just create your own brand new thing. Â*:dunno:

But my opinions worth nothing, so it doesn't really matter.
But then it wouldn't be based on our RP stories. And if it isn't based on our RPs then what's the point?

I don't think we have to worry about our stories being seen as derivative of CG's stories. I mean which CG character is Meteoro based on? Or Millennium? Or Lord Mattson? Or Sil? Or Qwaring's Clone#1? The CG stuff has always been background for our RP's, it's our characters that take center stage. All we need to do is remove the CG elements and replace it with something that will support our characters just as well, if not better.

I have this comicbook idea of a former supervillain learning what it means to be a hero while he's working to avenge the death of his former archnemesis, if you asked me how I came up with that I'd tell you it's my version of the death of Superman. It started as me thinking about how I would have told that story differently (a pompous thing to do but still a nice writing exercise), I came up with an idea I really liked but knew I'd never be able to use it so I recast the story. I then plotted out what would happen after the death and I came up with a story of one man finding out why someone would give his life for others and deciding that's what he wants/must do.

Where the story starts from really doesn't matter, all that matters is where it ends up. I think we're all creative enough to change what needs to be changed and create stories that focus on the characters and plots that are entirely our own creation.

Qwaring
05-21-2005, 10:18 PM
((Hmmmm... for easier following of the plot twists, I think it would be much easier if we explored only one concept per thread... Â*Which would mean to split this thread into several threads... Â*Or would it Â*complicate it even more?))
I think we should create new threads for each of the concepts. This thread could act as the starting point for any and all discussions about the comics. If the discussions get big enough they can move on to their own thread. Or at least that's what I think.

KyleLitke
05-21-2005, 11:09 PM
Not that I have any say whatsoever, but personally I'd rather see something more original as a webcomic. It'd be neat, but to get away from the Crossgen stuff, you'd have to change practicaly the entire thing. Having two warring houses with different names, and calling them Gods instead of First just isn't really changing it much at all. It's one thing for RP, which is fun, but I think for a web comic it'd be too derivative of Crossgen unless a lot of major things get changed...and if a lot of major things DO get changed, then you might as well just create your own brand new thing. Â*:dunno:

But my opinions worth nothing, so it doesn't really matter.
But then it wouldn't be based on our RP stories. And if it isn't based on our RPs then what's the point?

I don't think we have to worry about our stories being seen as derivative of CG's stories. I mean which CG character is Meteoro based on? Or Millennium? Or Lord Mattson? Or Sil? Or Qwaring's Clone#1? The CG stuff has always been background for our RP's, it's our characters that take center stage. All we need to do is remove the CG elements and replace it with something that will support our characters just as well, if not better.

I have this comicbook idea of a former supervillain learning what it means to be a hero while he's working to avenge the death of his former archnemesis, if you asked me how I came up with that I'd tell you it's my version of the death of Superman. It started as me thinking about how I would have told that story differently (a pompous thing to do but still a nice writing exercise), I came up with an idea I really liked but knew I'd never be able to use it so I recast the story. I then plotted out what would happen after the death and I came up with a story of one man finding out why someone would give his life for others and deciding that's what he wants/must do.

Where the story starts from really doesn't matter, all that matters is where it ends up. I think we're all creative enough to change what needs to be changed and create stories that focus on the characters and plots that are entirely our own creation.

It doesn't matter if the characters themselves are based on specific characters, though. What I'm trying to say is...look, if I started a webcomic about a school of mutants and a superhero team that are teachers/world travelers that fight evil mutants, and I say "Well, no, see, this character isn't ACTUALLY a Marvel character, and they're called the Y Men, not the X-Men"...it's still derivative of it. Likewise, if you use a group of gods (whether you call them the First or not) split into two warring houses (whether you call them Sinister/Dexter or not), in a universe with Atlanteans, and other characters that have special powers (whether you call them sigil bearers or not)... I dunno. It's not UNIQUE, you know? It doesn't mean the stories aren't unique, but...it's one thing to have an RP universe based in the CG universe...that's the whole point of RP. But then when it actually becomes a web comic.. Â*:dunno:

The only real way to do it is not just to change the names of these things. Changing the name of the races and houses really isn't much different than me making a character named Billy MacPherson, an Irish lad whose parents were killed as a boy, so he dresses up in a bat outfit and fights crime at night. Billy MacPherson may not be a DC character, but his concept is the same as Batman's. You'd actually have to change the CONCEPT to make it different, and if you're changing the concept, then why even use all this stuff? Why not just create new stuff?

As far as your story idea goes off the death of Superman, that's actually what I'm getting at. You came up with an idea by looking at a story about Superman, and then going in a different direction. If you were to actually release that story, it'd be fine, because you're just using the general idea. But if you were to take that story, and say the main character is one of the most powerful superheroes in the world, he has a secret identity as a mild mannered radio announcer, a DJ best friend who doesn't know his secret identity but is friends with both the secret identity and the superhero, and a hot wife who was once his competitor but now isn't, I'd say "Ummm...that's Superman with a couple things changed". A story about two warring houses of Gods, even if they aren't called the First, is still a Crossgen story, and that's all I'm trying to say.

Also, what if people didn't want their characters in it? Or if they said it was okay, and then a couple months later didn't like the way it was portrayed and wanted them taken out?

Jason Sanborn
05-21-2005, 11:21 PM
That is what we're trying to establish when we change things. Part of what we've been doing in RP has already changed from what CG was. We're now taking it a step further and changing the names along with some of the concepts to pull it farther away from the CG Universe.

The concept of warring gods is as old as mythology, so there is nothing new there. Alliances? Again, nothing new to a specific location. Like I said, there is enough of a difference already to set us apart, we're just removing the last vestiges of CG stuff for the specific stories that are going on the web.

For the characters, we're using what has already been written for the script. We have pages of posts of dialogue and the like. If players don't want to be involed, we may find other stories that don't include those characters. Permission is being gathered before we use any characters. If, by some chance, that someone wants out later, we'll deal with it fairly at that time. It could potentially end a web-comic prematurely (which is something we hope won't happen), but it will always be up to the person who "owns" the character.

In order to prevent "drop-out" as much as possible, we're doing a couple things. I previously mentioned about asking permission. Also, the person is going to be involved in the web-comic to make sure that their character is represented properly. Since we're using preexisting written posts for the stories, we shouldn't have too much of a problem there.

Random Character
05-22-2005, 04:51 AM
Nearly every web comic I read has one part or another drawn from other sources. Some are out right mocking homages and some say my idea started because of this. And some could even say they inspired a comic.

And as Jas said, there are many themes out there that people play upon time and again. The common kid becoming a grand hero plays out all over and no one says he's ripping it off of this.

I know I would feel very proud to see something I've made as a hobby become a web comic. Part of me would love to find an artist, gather permission from all involved in it, talk to White Wolf, and turn my epic WtA game into a comic. I don't think it would happen but it would still make my day. We RP for fun. I always say that. And the thought that my fun could make someone else smile or laugh makes it a treasure. If we have to provide some work to get it there, then so be it.

Meteoro
05-22-2005, 08:44 AM
((Hmmmm... for easier following of the plot twists, I think it would be much easier if we explored only one concept per thread... Â*Which would mean to split this thread into several threads... Â*Or would it Â*complicate it even more?))
I think we should create new threads for each of the concepts. This thread could act as the starting point for any and all discussions about the comics. If the discussions get big enough they can move on to their own thread. Or at least that's what I think.

At night I would be creating the separate thread for each of the concepts we're twisting, unless others drop by an say they want to have the whole thing together ;). *This thread would be used as the starting point for all the discussions, as suggested by Q.

Oh! *And I would be copying all the suggestions in each respective thread.

:cool1: M :cool1:

Zeb
05-22-2005, 12:51 PM
Had just a thought. Why not call the Segal mark an Angel's tear. Angels are very powerful. And they could get their power like that. Say Long time ago an Angel appeared after a great tragedy. The ones that came before appeared and the tear hit by them. It did as a water droplet does hit the ground and bits of it was sent in the directsons of those around and it hit each one of them leaving the mark. And becoming a part of them giving them their power. A requiem from God. Each of them as people *do uses their bleasings in difrent ways. *And each be passed it down from generation to generation. Or by touch at their death. Or as they died the mark disappeared and appeared on the next one with the potential to do what they did. And each person gets a different power considering what part of the tear hit them or the one before. Greatness from tragedy. And some times the year can get in the "wrong" hands. I.E. the person whom get it is evil and may become good one day. Or like Vader was good when they got it, but for a while walks in the darkness. But, their power remains. Till the tear is passed onto another. Maybe someone without it wants all the tears and kills wares to try and steal them. Or torture them till they pass it on. For a brief story. This was just off the top of my head. *OK thanx for your time.

Daveosaurus
05-22-2005, 02:23 PM
...

Qwaring's clone#1
05-22-2005, 02:36 PM
My ideas for the Transitioned characters to be from an alternate universe has a slight flaw, Bellona and Pax. They were old gods that became transitioned characters.

Although I do have a solution, some of the transitioned from the alternate universe tried to switch bodies with some old gods (for the same reason they want to create the gods for), but they were too incompatable and the transitioned that made this attempt were either destroyed or severely injured. The old gods that the switch was attempted on gained transition level power, and possibly the same instability that the transitioned suffer from.

Zeb
05-22-2005, 05:34 PM
Had just a thought. Why not call the Segal mark an Angel's tear.

That's not a bad idea... Unfortunately there are already Angel's tears elsewhere in the stories.

I know one character's Sigil is referred to as a "demon mark". Given that (as I understand it) the purpose of the Sigils in the original comics was to cause conflict, would this idea be a better one to follow up?

Thanx for saying it's an interesting idea. Ah ok. Hmm, why not a touch of God. Like Israel got. Each could have gotten that. And it gave them their powers. *Or a peace of the eye of Odion. Or maybe some of Bladders blood from the missile toe Loki shot him with. Heck a trickster like Loki would love that. Or maybe they could be all of the blood line of Mike the Arch Angel's half human son. Or maybe it was an ancient Rune they all learned and put it on them and beside on who they truly are they got a different power. One saints bones were said to heal. Maybe a bone fragment could have been put into each person and mutated over the years giving them their powers. Thanx for your time.

Meteoro
05-22-2005, 07:09 PM
Just changed the name of this General Discussion thread, so I can create new threads, each for a particular subject. *I think this way, each discussion can be more focused on one particular aspect that we're twitching for the Web Strip, and keep this thread for the creative generalities.

:cool1: M :cool1:

Meteoro
05-22-2005, 07:46 PM
I'm not finishing with the reposting of these subjects in different threads. *I'm going to eat something and I'll be right back. ;)

:cool1: M :cool1:

Meteoro
05-22-2005, 08:37 PM
Attention everyone!

I already created separate threads for every specific subject that we should be twisting for this web comic strip. *I think it would make it easier for everyone to jump in, instead of trying to get a hold of everything at once.

At first, Qwaring and I started going back and forward with all of the themes, I know it must have looked quite complicated to keep track of the ideas. *I hope this splitting will make it easier for all of you.

Once again, feel free to jump in and add your own opinions.

“…â€

Qwaring
05-23-2005, 08:01 AM
Thanks, M.

Vermin
05-23-2005, 08:32 AM
you're welcome :)

Vampyre Lestat
05-23-2005, 07:39 PM
I apologize as I only read some of the posts in the thread but I feel compelled to say that I think the key here is to change only what we have to change leaving as much as possible.

For example, it looks like the notion of the transcended atlanteans are being re-enineered. * *I don't see why. * *CG does not own the concept of Atlanteans..and as far as their Transcendence..its not much more than evolution (Which CG actually took from 2001)

Catch my drift?

Jason Sanborn
05-23-2005, 07:42 PM
I want to take it one step further as well. Why do we need to define everything right now? Why not decide on a story to do, and see what gets affected, and change only what is necessary at that time. All this planning, IMO, seems a bit excessive. We're only doing a Web Comic, not a full comic series. :whaat:

Qwaring
05-23-2005, 08:19 PM
To answer your question; I'm bored and I don't have anything better to do.

KyleLitke
05-23-2005, 08:43 PM
I apologize as I only read some of the posts in the thread but I feel compelled to say that I think the key here is to change only what we have to change leaving as much as possible.

For example, it looks like the notion of the transcended atlanteans are being re-enineered. Â* Â*I don't see why. Â* Â*CG does not own the concept of Atlanteans..and as far as their Transcendence..its not much more than evolution (Which CG actually took from 2001)

Catch my drift?

Because you have to look at it COLLECTIVELY. If Atlanteans were the only thing involved, then okay, Crossgen doesn't own the rights to Atlantis. Obviously not. But the point is, the conversation is going like this.

"Well, Crossgen doesn't own the rights to Atlanteans, so we can use that. And they also don't own the rights to evolving further, so we can use that. Crossgen also doesn't own the rights to Gods, so we can use that. They also don't own the rights to warring houses, so we can use that. Also, they don't own the rights to humans getting magic powers from a symbol, so we can use that." The problem is when you then put ALL of those things together, yes, Crossgen can make a case that they DID use those ideas...and it can EASILY be proven that these ideas were taken directly from Crossgen, because every one of these ideas began on the Crossgen boards, in the Crossgen RP section, using the Crossgen names such as the First, Sigil Bearers, etc.

It'd be like saying "Well, okay, DC doesn't own the rights to Superheroes. They also don't own the rights to the superpowers flight, heat vision, super strength, super speed, invulnerability, etc. They also don't own the rights to a reporter as a secret identity. Also, they don't own the rights to the arch nemesis being a high powered businessman. They don't own the rights to the name Metropolis. And they don't own the rights to the names Ma and Pa, or the state of Kansas. So I'm going to create a superhero with all those superpowers who lives in Metropolis, works as a mild mannered reporter, calls his parents Ma and Pa, and although he's originally a superhero, came from space". DC does not own any one of those ideas individually, but when you put them all together, can you say lawsuit? They'd have one across your desk as soon as they found out about it, even if your characters name is Spaceboy instead of Superman.

I'm not saying anyone here would get sued, because I sincerely doubt Disney would notice or care, since they're not doing much with Crossgen, and even if they do, they'd be more apt to go for the Code 6 titles, or maybe Meridian and just get rid of the Sigil. And I'm not so sure they COULD do it over a webcomic, although I'm not sure if anyone's actually tried before. But it really is not as simple as saying Crossgen doesn't own the rights to Atlanteans, because that's not the only thing being used here.

manekochan
05-24-2005, 01:49 AM
Have you read all the threads that are being considered for the web comics? The Eden thread, at least, would be equally in place in any universe as most of the key players right now are simple humans.

Daveosaurus
05-24-2005, 03:13 AM
...

Qwaring
05-24-2005, 04:08 AM
Clonathan's got a sigil.

Qwaring
05-24-2005, 04:14 AM
It'd be like saying "Well, okay, DC doesn't own the rights to Superheroes. They also don't own the rights to the superpowers flight, heat vision, super strength, super speed, invulnerability, etc. They also don't own the rights to a reporter as a secret identity. Also, they don't own the rights to the arch nemesis being a high powered businessman. They don't own the rights to the name Metropolis. And they don't own the rights to the names Ma and Pa, or the state of Kansas. So I'm going to create a superhero with all those superpowers who lives in Metropolis, works as a mild mannered reporter, calls his parents Ma and Pa, and although he's originally a superhero, came from space". DC does not own any one of those ideas individually, but when you put them all together, can you say lawsuit? They'd have one across your desk as soon as they found out about it, even if your characters name is Spaceboy instead of Superman.
Or you could just name your character Supreme. Or Mister Majestic. Or Hyperion. Or...

And I think DC and Marvel do own the rights to "superhero".

Vampyre Lestat
05-24-2005, 06:37 AM
I apologize as I only read some of the posts in the thread but I feel compelled to say that I think the key here is to change only what we have to change leaving as much as possible.

For example, it looks like the notion of the transcended atlanteans are being re-enineered. Â* Â*I don't see why. Â* Â*CG does not own the concept of Atlanteans..and as far as their Transcendence..its not much more than evolution (Which CG actually took from 2001)

Catch my drift?

Because you have to look at it COLLECTIVELY. If Atlanteans were the only thing involved, then okay, Crossgen doesn't own the rights to Atlantis. Obviously not. But the point is, the conversation is going like this.

"Well, Crossgen doesn't own the rights to Atlanteans, so we can use that. And they also don't own the rights to evolving further, so we can use that. Crossgen also doesn't own the rights to Gods, so we can use that. They also don't own the rights to warring houses, so we can use that. Also, they don't own the rights to humans getting magic powers from a symbol, so we can use that." The problem is when you then put ALL of those things together, yes, Crossgen can make a case that they DID use those ideas...and it can EASILY be proven that these ideas were taken directly from Crossgen, because every one of these ideas began on the Crossgen boards, in the Crossgen RP section, using the Crossgen names such as the First, Sigil Bearers, etc.

It'd be like saying "Well, okay, DC doesn't own the rights to Superheroes. They also don't own the rights to the superpowers flight, heat vision, super strength, super speed, invulnerability, etc. They also don't own the rights to a reporter as a secret identity. Also, they don't own the rights to the arch nemesis being a high powered businessman. They don't own the rights to the name Metropolis. And they don't own the rights to the names Ma and Pa, or the state of Kansas. So I'm going to create a superhero with all those superpowers who lives in Metropolis, works as a mild mannered reporter, calls his parents Ma and Pa, and although he's originally a superhero, came from space". DC does not own any one of those ideas individually, but when you put them all together, can you say lawsuit? They'd have one across your desk as soon as they found out about it, even if your characters name is Spaceboy instead of Superman.

I'm not saying anyone here would get sued, because I sincerely doubt Disney would notice or care, since they're not doing much with Crossgen, and even if they do, they'd be more apt to go for the Code 6 titles, or maybe Meridian and just get rid of the Sigil. And I'm not so sure they COULD do it over a webcomic, although I'm not sure if anyone's actually tried before. But it really is not as simple as saying Crossgen doesn't own the rights to Atlanteans, because that's not the only thing being used here.

Yes..but look over at the Maximum's being published by DC or Squadron Supreme being published by Marvel.

Gods are fair play. * *(So we ignore the Toy's part when it comes to the first.)
Evolved humans/atlanteans are fair play. * *
Earth is fair play.
Powers are fair play...(We can just ignore the Sigil)
Any name taken from mythology is fair play.
Warring houses.....already done in Romeo and Juliet and copied a million times since.

To put it simply.

Evolved beings created the Gods.
The Gods gave birth to the Demi-Gods.
The Gods split into factions (Sith and Jedi) *;)

Evolved beings also created powerful mortals.

All you need to do is change Universal Energy to Energy..and there is your foundation.

Kinda sounds like we are robbing from Greek mythology if you think about it.


Remember...we are not telling stories that involve what happened in the comics.
We are telling stories that delve into our characters portrayal. * *Change The Vampyre Lestat from First to The Vampyre God and all ties to things CG have faded completely.

IF we want to do the Negation War....we merely change the name of the Negation to the Outworlders or some other name and have them from a parallell universe. * And if we want to play it safe...we call him Styx instead of Charon.

My point is the stories we have crafted are based on the CG world..but not CG stories. * *Slight alteration is fine...reinventing the things that make the characters unique is not necessary.

KyleLitke
05-25-2005, 12:25 AM
I'm honestly surprised that nobody else even sees the point I'm trying to make. I've got no problem if every single person here disagrees with me, but I'm surprised that not one person thinks that simply changing the name isn't enough.

Something like Eden and the like are probably fine. But the Negation war is a huge example of what wouldn't work. Now we're talking about a story where an entire universe invades the main universe, while being opposed by Gods, Atlanteans, and guys with a mysterious mark that makes them have super powers. That's EXACTLY like Crossgen's storyline from Negation war, even if you change a couple names. Yeah, it may have panned out differently in our RP (especially since Crossgen never finished theirs), but the idea is still exactly the same. Some of the storylines would translate fine and wouldn't really need much changing at all, but when you get into the core Crossgen universe, they would, because those ARE Crossgen's stories. If I say "Okay, these four halflings team up with two human, an elf, a dwarf, and a wizard, and they've got this magic...necklace, and they have to destroy it in...let's see...the river of death, but they're being opposed by an incredibly powerful guy who's power is linked to the necklace...and the group will get split up while the necklace bearer gets led to the river of death by this thing that used to be a halfling until it wore the necklace too long...", I may have changed a couple names, but it's still the Lord of the Rings. Crossgen might not have created any one of those ideas by themselves, but when you put them all together and tell a story about an invasion from another universe being opposed by all these things, yeah, that's Crossgen's idea. *

:dunno: *I don't remember reading or hearing about any other books where a universe tries to invade another, and are opposed by two houses of Gods that don't like each other, Atlanteans, both those who evolved to become more powerful than Gods and those who stayed behind (and even they have super powers), and humans with magic powers granted by a magic symbol. I can point to any ONE of those ideas and say "I saw that already", but not when they're all put together like that. Like I said, some storylines would probably work just fine...I haven't read everything that's happened in them, but I'm sure plenty of them would work well and not need much, if any, changing...but the major storylines like the Negation War are different.

KyleLitke
05-25-2005, 12:26 AM
It'd be like saying "Well, okay, DC doesn't own the rights to Superheroes. They also don't own the rights to the superpowers flight, heat vision, super strength, super speed, invulnerability, etc. They also don't own the rights to a reporter as a secret identity. Also, they don't own the rights to the arch nemesis being a high powered businessman. They don't own the rights to the name Metropolis. And they don't own the rights to the names Ma and Pa, or the state of Kansas. So I'm going to create a superhero with all those superpowers who lives in Metropolis, works as a mild mannered reporter, calls his parents Ma and Pa, and although he's originally a superhero, came from space". DC does not own any one of those ideas individually, but when you put them all together, can you say lawsuit? They'd have one across your desk as soon as they found out about it, even if your characters name is Spaceboy instead of Superman.
Or you could just name your character Supreme. Or Mister Majestic. Or Hyperion. Or...



The difference is, those are Superman-like characters that clearly have a lot in common with him....they aren't EXACTLY like Superman with the names changed.

Daveosaurus
05-25-2005, 03:55 AM
...

Quaxo9
05-25-2005, 04:30 AM
I see what you're saying Kyle, and I can also see why people are arguing with you. Here's my take:
You are opposed to the remaking of storylines that are along the lines of what Crossgen put out. Now, I never expected to be able to use something like the Negation War, maybe some did, but you have to admit, that would be a major problem with copywriting, etc. like K said. Anyhou, all the name changing is really just to make sure we don't get charged for these stories we've played out. The stories, even those involving the First, don't tend to follow any scripted CG storyline, so really, just changing the names of the First to something else would work fine b/c it's just a background element. It's not "copying" b/c we don't necessarily delve into the background of every given character. As Lestat said, there are a lot of powered beings out there, so calling them that instead of First would be acceptable b/c people are used to powered characters and aren't going to sue us for having them.

Is that a little clearer? I dunno, maybe I'm just reiterating and not really helping, but I do try. :whaat:

Qwaring's clone#1
05-25-2005, 08:55 AM
The Negation War is a bad example. That was Gator's SL and because he's shown that he's unwilling to share stories or story elements I think wanting to get an SL of his into a comic would be a mistake.


I'm honestly surprised that nobody else even sees the point I'm trying to make. I've got no problem if every single person here disagrees with me, but I'm surprised that not one person thinks that simply changing the name isn't enough.
I understand your arguement exactly. I'm honestly suprised that you haven't read a single one of M's or my posts where we tried to change everything. A race of powerful beings that are escaping from a dying universe is completely different than Atlantean's transitioning into godhood. That's what I suggested. Really. It's like two pages ago. Go take a look.

I'm all for changing things so there's nothing left to be linked to the CG stuff.


My point is the stories we have crafted are based on the CG world..but not CG stories. Â* Â*Slight alteration is fine...reinventing the things that make the characters unique is not necessary.
Why must you always take the easy, yet logical, route.
I started out with a great big departure from the source material because I'm a spaz and I suddenly had a few decent ideas.
My suggestions are just that, suggestions. Anyone's free to make counter suggestions, like you have done. We'll hammer things out and decide what's best as a group (although that much is probably obvious, but I like stating the obvious, because I'm garenteed immunity from logical arguements if I do).
I'm all for keeping as much of the source material as we can get away with as well. The CG stuff or new concepts make little difference since our characters and stories will remain unchanged (or relatively unchanged).

We may not need to figure out all of the details yet, but until people start deciding what it is I'm going to draw for the Kobalty story, or even if I'm drawing it, brainstorming alternative concept ideas is a fun thing to do in the meantime.

manekochan
05-25-2005, 04:43 PM
I also don't think it should be a blanket decision. Each sl and each character needs to be looked at individually to see what works and what doesn't and what needs to be changed. Not a simple, "all sigils are now power tatoos, all first are now demi-gods" kind of thing. Branching off is a chance to be more creative with the characters, not make them derivitive.

Jason Sanborn
05-25-2005, 05:01 PM
I agree, which is partly why I suggested earlier that we just pick a SL to convert and tackle each issue as necessary.

Here are a couple of issues I want to make absolutely clear for everyone.

First, we won't use locations or characters created by others without the other person's express permission.

Second, any changes we decide upon for our characters or locations may not necessarily be universal. Others may choose to use the same idea, but ultimately it won't affect their character.

Third, if a location is denied, a new location can be created. This goes along the same lines as changing the CG elements. We have to change enough to make it unique. As Kyle has stated, just changing a name isn't necessarily enough. This, of course, would be weighed on a case-by-case basis, to determine how it is to work.

Fourth, if a character is denied, then we cannot use that character period. Same goes for unique CG characters. We can create new characters to fill the void, but the character must be different, not just in name.

Fifth, all comments, suggestions, questions and concerns are welcome. Everyone should be given equal chance to speak their mind, and their comments should be taken into consideration. Previous troubles with a person should be put on the shelf for this discussion, and feedback should be read.

Finally, this thread has been civil so far, and I want to see it remain as such. I don't want it to come in between people, or be the basis for arguments. I will close down the idea if it comes to that. We can agree to disagree. I, for one, will try to be fair to everyone, and if I feel a story breaks that apart, then it won't become a web comic on the site.

Now my recommendation is this. Instead of debating about the "big picture" issues, lets just decide on a story (or even a specific character to highlight), and discuss the ideas related to that. Remember, we aren't redesigning the entire universe, we're only redesigning what is necessary for a specific story, so that it remains unique and not connected to CG or anything else.

Meteoro
05-26-2005, 10:17 AM
Looks like a lot has happened since I last checked this thread. Â*It's a real shame that all the suggestions made by Q and I got dismissed so easily (everyone was invited to suggest, so it's not like it was a two-person club), because we wanted to make our RP universe as unique as possible, but well, we're working on consensus here, so I'll go with majority.

I don't think a "fix on a need basis" move is the wisest, mostly because that's what DC and Marvel do and we've all seen the result: thigs don't blend from time to time. Â*Fixing the whole deal may have seemed a little too big for everyone, well, because it was too big ;). Â*Reshaping the big concepts while keeping in mind the small ones would have helped us make our universe unique.

I guess our main intent was to create something that, when read by others wouldn't raise expressions like "Oh, they're writing The First" (granted, of course, they've ever read the First in the First place, since it sold so bad and was the first CG cancelled title :P).

So, now we're changing names only, right?

:cool1: M :cool1:

Jason Sanborn
05-26-2005, 10:49 AM
No, we're not just changing names, we're changing entire concepts, and your ideas haven't been dismissed. ;)

Meteoro
05-26-2005, 11:03 AM
Don't want to sound like a crybaby. *But I thought it was established no major changes would be made, right? *So, if major changes aren't made, we fall into small changes. *And small changes are only cosmetic. *Character name changes, place name changed, no First but Gods instead. *That's what I mean. *:whaat:

:cool1: M :cool1:

Jason Sanborn
05-26-2005, 12:29 PM
Depends on your definition of "major." ;)

The fact is, we need to change enough to seperate our SLs from CG, but not enough that it totally rewrites our characters' histories (unless we WANT them rewritten). Also, these changes aren't universal. What may work for Meteoro, may not work for Kalor. That's why I suggest we take things on a story-by-story basis, keeping track of changes that are made as a reference. It is also why I suggest we start with mostly stand-alone ideas, such as Kobalty or Eden (or the like), and move into the larger stories.

Meteoro
05-26-2005, 12:41 PM
That's okay. *I'll go with it. *:)

But just for the record, the changes Q and I were suggesting, were designed to change the overall picture but keep unaffected our characters at all. *Meteoro would still be Meteoro and his history would have been the same, the background would have been different. *Same with all of our major or minor characters. *Things weren't ironed out yet, that's why everyone was invited to contribute with ideas.

:whaat: M :whaat:

Jason Sanborn
05-26-2005, 12:47 PM
And they are still invited. Your ideas weren't being dismissed. I was just trying to clarify things from the debates that were beginning to start. ;)

Vampyre Lestat
05-27-2005, 06:21 AM
I'm honestly surprised that nobody else even sees the point I'm trying to make. I've got no problem if every single person here disagrees with me, but I'm surprised that not one person thinks that simply changing the name isn't enough.

Something like Eden and the like are probably fine. But the Negation war is a huge example of what wouldn't work. Now we're talking about a story where an entire universe invades the main universe, while being opposed by Gods, Atlanteans, and guys with a mysterious mark that makes them have super powers. That's EXACTLY like Crossgen's storyline from Negation war, even if you change a couple names. Yeah, it may have panned out differently in our RP (especially since Crossgen never finished theirs), but the idea is still exactly the same. Some of the storylines would translate fine and wouldn't really need much changing at all, but when you get into the core Crossgen universe, they would, because those ARE Crossgen's stories. If I say "Okay, these four halflings team up with two human, an elf, a dwarf, and a wizard, and they've got this magic...necklace, and they have to destroy it in...let's see...the river of death, but they're being opposed by an incredibly powerful guy who's power is linked to the necklace...and the group will get split up while the necklace bearer gets led to the river of death by this thing that used to be a halfling until it wore the necklace too long...", I may have changed a couple names, but it's still the Lord of the Rings. Crossgen might not have created any one of those ideas by themselves, but when you put them all together and tell a story about an invasion from another universe being opposed by all these things, yeah, that's Crossgen's idea. Â*

:dunno: Â*I don't remember reading or hearing about any other books where a universe tries to invade another, and are opposed by two houses of Gods that don't like each other, Atlanteans, both those who evolved to become more powerful than Gods and those who stayed behind (and even they have super powers), and humans with magic powers granted by a magic symbol. I can point to any ONE of those ideas and say "I saw that already", but not when they're all put together like that. Like I said, some storylines would probably work just fine...I haven't read everything that's happened in them, but I'm sure plenty of them would work well and not need much, if any, changing...but the major storylines like the Negation War are different.

Kyle..I see the point you are trying to make and I think we are talking about the same thing. Â*

If we have Charon and the lawbringers fight the original first in the web comic..yes..I agree..its the same thing.

If we have one universe of Gods attacking another Universe of Gods..well..then to me its as vague as War of the Gods in the DCU or any other Sci-Fi/fantasy epic that depicts a war.

The stories that we did were so divergant from the CG Universe that the only real thing that was in common with the comic book were some of the characters.

Just using "My" family for instance...if you replace first with God..there is no way you can attach it to the CGU. Â* DC would have more of a Gripe with Qwaring..which can be easily remidied. Â* Â*

Yes..the Negation war would have to be changed to a certain extent...but most of the tales are just about Gods and their manipulations and battles..which again ties more to mythology than CG. Â*

We don't need to use the sigls for the Sigil bearers..but as far as humans being embued with power at the hands of the Gods..that ties to Greek mythology..not CG.

To make it simple..we don't do the negation war for that reason. Â*Which is fine by me...but the rest...to me is fair game.

I don't think we need to reinvent everything because we diverted so far from the original template that the characters, powers, and tenets are our own.

Vampyre Lestat
05-27-2005, 06:28 AM
Looks like a lot has happened since I last checked this thread. Â*It's a real shame that all the suggestions made by Q and I got dismissed so easily (everyone was invited to suggest, so it's not like it was a two-person club), because we wanted to make our RP universe as unique as possible, but well, we're working on consensus here, so I'll go with majority.


I take exception to this.

If you claim its not a two person club than that opens the door for people to disagree. Â* People are making suggestions and nothing seems to be set in stone so I don't *understand the "Its a shame" part.


IMO our stories are already unique. Â*We did diverge from the core CGU and if we don't tell stories that tie into the comics then we are safe.

The stories are already there..they don't need to be rewritten or altered in a major way.
Just modified to take out the clear cut ties to other publishers.

Meteoro
05-27-2005, 07:57 AM
The "it's a shame" part meant that I regretted that the concepts got dismissed completely, not that they were meant to be THE concepts to use. *Half I said got dropped along the way (at least as long as Q and I were discussing it), and I was fine with it as long as there were new and more interesting choices to pick from.

No new suggestions were made on the other posters part. *I'm fine with it since we're working on consensus here and I'll go with majority. *And I want to emphatize that it's okay and I'm going with majority, here.

But please, Jeff, don't question me feeling that "it's a shame". *I can agree with you having different opinions than mine, but it's really upsetting when you keep questioning how I feel about something when you don't agree with me. *This isn't meant to start a real argument, just to state that discussion is okay, stop it at that. *And it grows pointless to keep raising a subject that on which I already chose to go a different way. *What's the point to keep going at it?

Chris

Vampyre Lestat
05-27-2005, 08:15 AM
1) They aren't dismissed because nothing is set in stone. * *If the final script was written ignoring all of yours and Q's suggestions..then I could agree. * But to claim that they were dismissed..thats unfair and inaccurate.

2) I question your feeling that "it’s a shame" because by saying that you disregard the feelings of people who don't agree. * *If you are ok with the changes and want to move on then the wise thing to do is move on without the commentary making a judgement call on what took place. * You ask "What's the point to keep going at it?" * That question that should have been considered before the "It’s a shame" post..not in the response to it. * *

Cut and dry..its not a big deal..but my point is that if we are going to want others to get involved..its unfair to put ones personal feelings at the forefront. *Because right now, the "It’s a shame" type posts are making me not want to get involved at all in this process. * All it does is force someone to pause when they don't agree..and is that what we want? *

Also..if someone is going to post their feelings I don't think its unfair for another person to address those feelings (Especially if they think they are unfair).

Jason Sanborn
05-27-2005, 11:15 AM
Posts removed as they deterred from the subject into something personal. Let's just move on with the topic at hand.

Meteoro
05-27-2005, 12:43 PM
Getting back to topic, I think it would be best if I'm not involved in this at all. *Good luck everyone. *Please, don't include my characters in your projects.

Janus
05-27-2005, 04:51 PM
You know that highly limits the available stories available, M. Without the top three clone makers blessings, 90% of the stories are unavailable. Despite whatever problems you have with Lestat, I ask you to think about the overall project.

Qwaring
05-27-2005, 05:30 PM
On a lighter note I came up with an idea for one of those small self contained stories that I was going to do for practice before attempting a whole story. I have an idea for a small QC#1 story. Actually it's not even based on an RP. It's an original story. But that's okay, it's just for practice.

Vampyre Lestat
05-27-2005, 06:02 PM
You know that highly limits the available stories available, M. Without the top three clone makers blessings, 90% of the stories are unavailable. Despite whatever problems you have with Lestat, I ask you to think about the overall project.


If its any help...I gave control of my stories and characters to Q, I won't be involved directly.

Meteoro
05-27-2005, 07:55 PM
You're absolutely right, Matts. *I felt stupid the very second I posted that I wouldn't be participating. *Of course I love this project and of course I would love to participate. *Maybe one of the problems was that I liked this project a little too much and started suggesting things wildly. *Not that I think those were bad ideas, but that's not just my call. *I said a thousand times I'd go with the majority and I certainly believe in that.

Along the way this became sour to me. *I won't explain things because it *looks like I need to have a justification for every emotion I have and, since I don't, I'll stay shut.

I'm open minded about this project in general, but I won't be back in unless some boundaries about respect are established.

Chris

Meteoro
05-28-2005, 08:54 AM
Jeff, I'm not asking you to leave. *I'm not cool with the discussion we had, but this doesn't mean that you have to leave altogether. *Let's just be polite and things will be fine.

Vampyre Lestat
05-28-2005, 10:30 AM
And there in lies the problem..for I feel I was polite. *I may not have been as understanding or empathetic as you may have liked or wanted....but I was also speaking as to my feelings on the matter. * *The response to my comments seemed to be based on more than what I had said in this very thread. * *In lieu of wondering how my responses and feelings are going to be interpreted or if my next participation will be the straw that breaks another camels back I rather step away now instead of dooming the project to petty squabbles or broken friendships. *

You asked me to leave you alone...so thats what I'm doing. * I don't see any other way to handle the situation other than changing who I am or second guessing every post that I make...and I'm not going to do that. * *We both have feelings...so instead of hurting yours again..I'll just opt out and read it when its done. * Q has control of my characters and I trust him. * So I'm not worried about any changes that need to be made. * If the verdict is to write my character out of any stories..thats fine too. * *

I know its too late, but I don't want to make a big deal out of this. * *And I already regret writing this post. *But I didn't want to ignore the issue.

And I apologize to all for taking this thread down a less constructive path yet again.

Qwaring
05-28-2005, 08:01 PM
It's nice to know that you feel like you can trust me with your characters, although I'd rather not have found out about it because of a situation like this. But I understand why you're doing it.

And don't worry, your stuff is in good hands.


*Waits until TVL is looking away before taking out the sketches of the Vampyre dressed as a ballerina.*

Okay, people, here's my idea for the NEW Vampyre... :sinister:



Just kidding. :innocent:

sorry... I'll be quiet now... :whaat:

Meteoro
05-28-2005, 09:14 PM
The more I think about this, the sorrier I am about the way things turned out. *I'm an ugly sight when I'm mad, I know that. *That's why I try to be a cheer person, because that's where my nice side is. *I don't like the other one at all and most times I keep it under control. *Other times it just *escapes me. *I'm not sure if I'm apologizing *or not, I'm just real sorry things turned out this way. *Obviously, Jeff, we saw entirely different sides of that stupid argument, which I won't bring back because it would be pointless. *I would love to be always balanced like Jas, or always turning messes into something positive like Q, but that's not who I am. *You also mentioned your flaws and I couldn't help it but be real sorry about how things turned out, because I saw the man behind your words. *Maybe our ugly sides simply clash and things become explosive when we're both in dark synch, I don't know. *It happens with one particular friend in real life, too, so it's not like this is an unique event. *Still, it's not like the choice would be to give up something you or I really enjoy to make "things work" or to avoid the slight possibility of messing up again. * *That would be entirely unfair to you, to me and to a lot of people around this place. * Maybe there are others who are simply lost cases because they're incapable of taking a moment to have a deep insight. *Thankfully, neither you or I have that problem and that's a plus on both of our sides. *So, still the choice is yours. *You can give up entirely to a project you were obviously motivated with and on a friend who happens to be really disgusting some 4 days a year, or you can *make use of that insight and *see yourself in the mirror and do the best you can do with it. *I did it, and I'm not exactly happy with what I saw. *Obviously because this is not the first time I exploded like that and most probably not the last one, but believe me I'll do my best to spot this kind of situations and stop them before they happen. *I'm a very egocentric person, I always make fun of this because it is true and it's part of who I am, so, just imagine what it's like to look into a mirror after an event like this one and not like what you see on the other side... *I know I'm rambling, but you were honest and I'm being as honest as I can be. *

So, once again, it's up to you. *We can't mess up if were not around, but then, what's the point of not being somewhere we wanted to be in the first place because we're afraid to make mistakes?

Daveosaurus
05-29-2005, 05:35 PM
Seeing that all this idea has succeeded in doing so far is to set people I consider friends at odds with each other, I no longer wish to have any involvement with it.

Meteoro
05-29-2005, 07:47 PM
The idea per se is not a bad one, Dave. *Saying it is, it's kinda unfair. *Blame me if you like ;). *I'm the one with control issues. *:whaat:

:cool1: M :cool1:

KyleLitke
05-29-2005, 08:59 PM
I understand your arguement exactly. I'm honestly suprised that you haven't read a single one of M's or my posts where we tried to change everything.

Not gonna post any more in here after this one...there's enough arguing as it is and my opinions aren't wanted anyway. But I did read YOUR posts anyway. You also aren't the only one posting in the thread though. Others have said that nothing should be changed, or very little should be changed, or only names should be changed, and the Negation War was brought up as a possible storyline (I can't remember if you mentioned it or someone else in this thread, and frankly I don't really want to go looking for it right now). I think all of those have major problems behind them, and those are what I was arguing. If you DID read my posts, you'll see that I've been arguing that if you're going to go through with it, there SHOULD be some major changes, in regards to some of the races, and the Negation War as a storyline simply will not work, period, unless it gets changed so much that it may as well be a totally different SL. If that's also what you're saying, then you're not the one I was debating with.

Sorry if this post is coming off as rude or annoyed with you or anything like that, Q...I'm tired and I don't feel like rereading and editing it. It's not intended to be anything other than letting you know where I was coming from, and I'm certainly not annoyed at you. Others, sure, you, no.

Jason Sanborn
05-29-2005, 09:10 PM
Kyle, your opinions are appreciated. The bottom line is, we will have enough changes to make them unique. The stories we are currently doing don't require many changes to make them unique. When, and more importantly, IF, we ever get to the point to do larger universe related things, enough will be changed so that they cannot be accused of copyright infringement.

KyleLitke
05-29-2005, 09:45 PM
Kyle, your opinions are appreciated. The bottom line is, we will have enough changes to make them unique. The stories we are currently doing don't require many changes to make them unique. When, and more importantly, IF, we ever get to the point to do larger universe related things, enough will be changed so that they cannot be accused of copyright infringement.

By you, maybe. ;) Not so much by others.

And I know a lot of folks are very much misinterpreting what I said, so I want to state again that Eden, Kobalty, and most of the self contained stuff can very easily be done with only minor cosmetic changes or no changes at all, and there won't be a problem. As far as those go, go for it, I'm sure they'll be good reads. But someone brought up the Negation War, and there are many, many problems with that that go far beyond Gator not being likely to give permission. And if you have to make huge, major changes to not just the character ideas and races but also to the story itself, then what you're really doing is making up a new storyline using a couple elements from the other one, and you may as well just make up something new altogether.

And I mentioned this in the PM, but you guys have to keep one thing in mind. You know when you're reading a book, or a comic, or whatever, and you say "Man, that sounds familiar. It feels like he borrowed that from (insert book title here), but I guess there's no way to really know, could have been great minds think alike". Well when it comes to Negation War or something like that, there's no question mark about it...it can be EASILY proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the idea was taken directly from Crossgen, even if you change the same to "The War from the Other Universe!". Heck, this is called the Crossgen RP, and we started it on the Crossgen boards, which is where the storyline took place. There's no "I guess we can't prove he took the idea from them"...it CAN be proven, and very easily. I doubt anyone would care, but you never know. *:dunno:

It appears I lied about not posting in here again. ;) But I wanted to respond to Jason.

Qwathings
05-30-2005, 01:39 PM
You're not annoyed with me?!? I must be losing my touch. :cry:
I guess I'll stick with annoying Jason then. :shifty:

*Runs off to post several thousand random, and large, images on various threads in order to waste bandwidth and slow down the MB.*

Mwa-hahahahahaaahahaha!!! :sinister:

ahem

I think someone was just using the Negation War as an example of a SL that would give us some real prolems. If it gives us problems then we don't use it. Simple, effective and a strategy already suggested by others.
We have over three years of stories at our disposal, pretty much. So we have a lot of room to pick and choose. If a story has too much CG influence in it then it won't be used. All the rest just needs a little polishing and it's good to go.
Most of my stories have very few big ties to the CG universe. Sure they have First, Lawbringers and Sigil Bearers, but these elements aren't vital to the story as they are and can be replaced by gods, aliens and superhumans. Will these aliens be the creations of a human that has transended into godhood when he was cast into another universe which he soon conquered? Who cares. All we'll reveal is that this alien is a mean one that tears out spines and beats its former owner to death with it. That's not exactly original but it's not strictly owned by anyone either. If any more information is needed then we'll make something up. And only what's needed for the story, no more than that.

So quit looking at where all of this started and just look towards the finished product, which won't end up a horrible rip off of CG's comics. We have some very smart and talented people wanting to work on this thing. I have faith in them. They will choose the right stories to use. I know the writers and editors will seek out any CG material and replace it with some more already dominant original ideas. And I know the artists will draw our characters as they are and create original designs for anything that isn't ours. And hopefully we still have a large chunk of our little community still present for this project in order to keep an eye on things and make sure we don't screw things up.

Besides, I'm really excited about this project and that's a genie that isn't likely to be put back into its bottle, so I'm drawing something and no one can stop me! ("genie", "bottle" and the word "isn't" are registered trademarks of the Disney corperation, all rights reserved)

Nyah! :razz:

Quaxo9
05-30-2005, 02:06 PM
Q, if I haven't said this before, I say it now - you da man! ;)

:lol: Honestly. *Everyone could use a chill pill every now and again and I think if we all take our prescribed dosages, everything will work out smoothly. Q was right in saying that we can trust the artists and editors to "take care" of anything that could be CG related and look great doing it! (okay, so that last bit is mine :whaat:) I hope that the rough roads we've been over smooth out soon so we will retain the support of the rest of the RP community. This can work, people, really it can!

Meteoro
05-30-2005, 03:55 PM
:nod:

Jason Sanborn
05-30-2005, 04:10 PM
You're not annoyed with me?!? I must be losing my touch. :cry:
I guess I'll stick with annoying Jason then. :shifty:

*Runs off to post several thousand random, and large, images on various threads in order to waste bandwidth and slow down the MB.*

Mwa-hahahahahaaahahaha!!! :sinister:
:shifty: Presses the "red" button and erases all existence of Q. :twisted:

:huh: He's still here? Darn! :evil:

Must be the dumb-luck of the clone that deactivated my "red" button. :whaat:

OZZ
05-31-2005, 12:10 PM
Seeing that all this idea has succeeded in doing so far is to set people I consider friends at odds with each other, I no longer wish to have any involvement with it.

You just hit the nail on the head as a big reason why I don't RP online anymore Dave. *;)







I do have a question... and this may be a stupid one and/or already be answered so forgive me if it already is and if I come off as intruding. *(just look at me as the outsider with no clue. which is actually a pretty good way to get feedback. the more one is removed from the equation, the less bias should enter in)

but what is the point of the webcomic? * is it just for general enjoyment? *is it to lead into something bigger? *will the webcomic be "published" (in the real sense, not as in just online sense)? * will it be marketed? *how big do you want this to get?

Jason Sanborn
05-31-2005, 12:47 PM
One step at a time. Right now it is something for enjoyment, and something to possibly bring in new visitors. As to future publication in print, I don't think anyone is thinking that far ahead, and I don't think it will happen because it would be way too complex to handle.

KyleLitke
05-31-2005, 12:50 PM
Seeing that all this idea has succeeded in doing so far is to set people I consider friends at odds with each other, I no longer wish to have any involvement with it.

You just hit the nail on the head as a big reason why I don't RP online anymore Dave. Â*;)


Same here, although I'm considering getting back into one of the self contained RPs with only a few people in it. If you're feeling the urge to RP again at any time, you could always try one of those. *I pretty much got forced out of the main CG RP.

OZZ
05-31-2005, 12:55 PM
I guess where I was going with this was... *why change anything at all?

To me, currently, it falls under the "fanfic" umbrella. Add to this the fact the CG was developing a Role Playing Game based off their universe (pre money problems)... *know what I mean.

So unless you're wanting to produce and sell something... I guess I don't understand what the problem is with the CG specific material.



It's like saying *hey.. we liked CG. We roleplayed some stuff out in their Universe. If you're interested.. check it out.

I say this mainly as a CG fan as well, because this would probably be all we're ever going to get anymore "Sigil-verse" wise.. *know what I mean.

OZZ
05-31-2005, 01:06 PM
*If you're feeling the urge to RP again at any time, you could always try one of those.

I think for me... *it's Real Life RP or bust. * I prefer the human interaction. *It's sooo *much easier to hash out disputes face to face.. *and there's two big plusses:

1) I don't have to type * ;)
and 2) I get to roll dice to determine the outcome (not just see who can be the most creative) and I LOVE my dice!!! I swear I'm addicted.. plus.. when I get mad at them... I can throw them out the window or stomp on them while saying OZZ SMASH!! *lol.. *oh... and mini's too... *i just painted my second mini for our game (check out the "Team Iuz" link in my sig for more info on Foxy and My gaming group *:p ) and that's becoming addictive as well... * :lol: *

ANYWHO... i'm digressing...


But I know that a lot of you have a high amount of creativity and I really really really would like to read about what you've all done in a nice little comic form *(or even in a prose novel/short story form *if someone wants to get ambitious *wink,wink* )

Bard
05-31-2005, 03:30 PM
Probably my first and last post in this thread and forum. *I like Bard, Shrike and Charis the way Tigs and I have lately developed her/them. *I strongly ask that if anyone attempts to incorporate these characters into your project that you do not alter any detail I/we have set forth at this post. *I've put a whole lot of heart and thought into my babies, and I will not appreciate anyone changing them into something different.

And now as my RL cousin Jeffrey would say, thank you and please conitnue posting.

Bard
05-31-2005, 03:34 PM
But I know that a lot of you have a high amount of creativity and I really really really would like to read about what you've all done in a nice little comic form Â*(or even in a prose novel/short story form Â*if someone wants to get ambitious *wink,wink* )

You know another friend said the very same thing last week.

Jason Sanborn
05-31-2005, 03:41 PM
Just to remind everyone who probably haven't read the whole thread. Characters or locations will not be used without permission. Alterations will not be done by the artist or the editor without the approval of the player. So, if you want to be involved, feel free to let us know, but know that your involvement does not mean giving up your character or what you have previously established for your character.

Jason Sanborn
05-31-2005, 03:42 PM
But I know that a lot of you have a high amount of creativity and I really really really would like to read about what you've all done in a nice little comic form *(or even in a prose novel/short story form *if someone wants to get ambitious *wink,wink* )

You know another friend said the very same thing last week.
Prose or short story would be good as well, but one headache at a time. ;)

Meteoro
05-31-2005, 04:06 PM
:rofl: